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DaggerheartOffline
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BerichtGeplaatst: Ma Jul 30, 2018 16:13    Onderwerp: Suggestions/Opinions about Qin Reageer met quote

I have some suggestions/opinions about Qin.

1. Equal stack of tiles: The game should always be played with divided tiles. With two players each get a stack with 6 tiles of each type (36 tiles each). This way both players have an EQUAL chance of getting the best/worst tiles.
2. Equal number of turns: Why should the game end if one player finish all his pagodas?? Of course the game should end with the last player in the turn = all players get equal number of tiles played (Note: The game will of course end if the board is full).

Personally I think Qin is best as a 4 player game only (the dynamics of the game)
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BerichtGeplaatst: Di Jul 31, 2018 0:30    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

Bram verzint hier geen spelregels voor spellen, hij heeft toestemming om de spellen voor JijBent te gebruiken en neemt dientengevolge de spelregels van de uitgever over.
Soms moeten ze iets gebogen worden vanwege het concept hier maar er wordt zoveel mogelijk de oorspronkelijke versie worden gevolgd.

En waarom geen nabeurt? Omdat de ontwerper dit zo niet bedoeld heeft. En het komt bij meer spellen wel voor, gewonnen is afgelopen.
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BerichtGeplaatst: Di Jul 31, 2018 16:21    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

The same as with Axio,
You played just one game and lost.
maybe play the game a little more before making suggestions.
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BerichtGeplaatst: Do Aug 02, 2018 13:34    Onderwerp: Axio/Qin Reageer met quote

I read the rules wrong in Axio, and I am sorry for that. And now you gonna "use" my error to attack me on other posts??

This is not related to if I win a game or not. Not sure why you write it.

Answer me this: Qin is a racing game in many ways.
The first player gets to put the first tile and start putting out pagodas. Why should the game end if the first player puts his last pagoda? He started the game! It make sense to let the last player have his last turn also. Forget what the designer have written, you don't find this logical?

If the second player puts his last pagoda first, or the board is full. Then the game should of course end.
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BerichtGeplaatst: Do Aug 02, 2018 18:32    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

In Egelrace it is a race. And even in that game you don't get a equalizing turn.

Especially in a racing game, the first one to finish is the one who wins.

Besides that; to form a real opinion about a game you have to play it more than once.

Qin looks like an easy game, but it has complex strategies, but also a luck factor (like many other games). A part of these strategies is due to the fact that the one who finishes first wins.

When you look at the statistics the game has 53% win for white and 47% for black. When you change to your rules black will still win 47% of the games. But white will win a lot less, because of your proposed change. (If white will not win less, your rule change makes even less sense, because it has no effect).

I predict the draw factor with your rule will be like 20+% (estimate). This means black still winst 47%, 20% draw and therefore white will win 33% or less. The balance is completely gone. Even if the drawrate is lower, it can't be above 12% or there will be a greater disbalance than in the current situation.

With your rules black has a great advantage due to the fact that he knows more. He knows what the first player has done, so he can anticipate on that.

Your second part of the game change, the fixed stack makes this game completely different. If a player takes notes he almost knows exactly which pieces the opponent has. This kills a game on a turn-based site. The game is designed to have a (small) luck factor. This makes the game interesting.With fixed stack the game looks the same but is a complete different one.
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BerichtGeplaatst: Do Aug 02, 2018 19:31    Onderwerp: Balance Reageer met quote

White has a higher winrate don't suprise me. I figured that much already without seeing the stats. I expected the winrate of white was even higher....

Yes, I see no problem with dividing the stacks into two, it's still 36 tiles each and I believe the game will require more skill the (memory aspect of rememering the tiles), but as you point out, this site is turnbased... using the open info about tiles played and memory of tiles left would make the game better (require more skill). I strongly believe that. It will no longer be a "brainless" random race!
Drawing from the big pile increases the random and I dislike that.


Laatst aangepast door Daggerheart op Za Aug 04, 2018 9:48, in totaal 1 keer bewerkt
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BerichtGeplaatst: Vr Aug 03, 2018 11:54    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

Besides the point that Jijbent doesn’t make the rules, but just follows them (which is of course an important point, but I’m interested the discussion so let’s just pretend there is total flexibility):

1. Equal stack of tiles
Yes, this would inevitably decrease the luck factor. I doubt that is what is needed / wanted though. Given that Qin has a static playing board, a luck factor is necessary (in my opinion) to keep the game interesting.
If both players get the same tiles, it would be a matter of time before every new game is ‘set’. Like you see with for example 4 on a row or Nine Men’s Morris (molenspel). I don’t like games where the winner is pretty much set on beforehand (like Red never loses on 4 on a row if he plays it perfectly), which is bound to happen if you take the complete factor luck out of the game.

Besides, I don’t feel like the influence of luck under the current rules is so big that adjustments are needed. The current top-5 players in the rating list all have a win rate of 70%+ (3 of them even around 80%). Much more then luck-based games like Yathzee (where it’s around 60% for the top-5) or Domino (also around 60%).
Yes, luck is a factor – as it is with almost all games on this site except for games like chess and 4 on a row – but I don’t think we should overestimate its influence. If it would really be a “brainless random race” like you said, the current number 1 on the rating list could never achieve a 83% win rate and a rating of 2000.

And by the way, I don’t see the ‘memory aspect’ as a skill. Every player on Jijbent that is VIP (or higher) has a notepad in every game, so it would just be a matter of digitally keeping track of what tiles the opponent has played; no memory required.

2. Equalizing turn
I mostly agree with alarmschijf, and might even take it a bit further..
I don’t think alarmschijf’s assumption that black will still win 47% is correct. Don’t forget that it is possible to take over pagodes and cities, making the opponent’s score ‘rise’. So if White gets to 0 and Black gets an equalizing turn, it is well possible in that stage of the game that black has an opportunity to take some White pagoda and/or city, meaning that it wouldn’t actually be a draw, but that black would win. This is an opportunity for Black that is currently not possible, so not only would his % stay steady, it would actually increase.
So I think an equalizing turn would change the win % drastically in favour of Black, most likely even more then the 6% difference between the colours in the current situation.

Besides I foresee some practical issues.
What happens if 1 of the players is at 0, and the other one at -1? The rules say ‘first to get to zero wins’; would this situation mean a draw, or a win for the ‘-1’? It would feel wrong if I had placed all my pagodes but still lose; but it would also feel bad if I placed more pagodes than my opponent but don’t get the win..
And how does an equalizing turn work when the board is full? If the board is full, the player with most pagodes wins. If White places the last pagoda, it would still mean he has the advantage of placing one more tile. And a full board is very rare now, but if you also implement the Equal tiles thing I guess this will happen very often.

And I’m sure there are dozens of other situations that probably require some sort of change in the current rules to keep the game logical and playable. Don’t forget that even an apparently small change – like an equalizing turns – can have a huge impact on the dynamics, tactics and rules of a game. And in my opinion, the pros don’t outweigh the cons for these particular changes.

Let’s not forget the creator(s) has put a lot of time and effort in creating the game and the rules. This doesn’t automatically make the rules perfect, but I think it’s safe to assume that while defining the rules, every possible scenario, play and outcome has been tested. The rules are not necessarily defined to minimize the inlfuence of luck, but rather to find a good balance between luck, strategics, dynamics etc.
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BerichtGeplaatst: Za Aug 04, 2018 3:42    Onderwerp: Re: Axio/Qin Reageer met quote

Daggerheart schreef:
I read the rules wrong in Axio, and I am sorry for that. And now you gonna "use" my error to attack me on other posts??

This is not related to if I win a game or not. Not sure why you write it.

Answer me this: Qin is a racing game in many ways.
The first player gets to put the first tile and start putting out pagodas. Why should the game end if the first player puts his last pagoda? He started the game! It make sense to let the last player have his last turn also. Forget what the designer have written, you don't find this logical?

If the second player puts his last pagoda first, or the board is full. Then the game should of course end.


ja dat doe ik met plezier jouw eerdere argumenten gebruiken tegen jou.... dit omdat jij in beide spellen slechts 1 spel hebt gespeeld en meteen op- en aanmerkingen hebt op de regels... dit omdat jij de moeite niet kan nemen om de regels te begrijpen en er geen inzicht in te hebben.

om dan toch mijn eerdere post die overigens ook verwijderd is om onduidelijke redenen blijf ik zeggen MEH

de gehele argumentatie die in navolging zijn van antwoorden door andere spelers is enkel een bewijs om zijn standpunt te bewijzen.
ook hierom zeg ik MEH.

in beide gevallen probeert hij de spelontwerper te bekritiseren om zijn ontwerp van het spel... terwijl de spelontwerper zijn redenen heeft vanwege zijn inzicht om het spel op die manier te ontwerpen.

als de heer daggerheart deze inzichten niet wil verkrijgen door het spel meer dan 1x te spelen dan zeg ik MEH tegen zijn argumenten ook omdat deze argumenten zijn gemaakt bij verliespartijen zeg ik wederom MEH, het is nu enkel afwachten op het volgende beklag op het volgende spel wat hij slechts 1x heeft gespeeld en verloren heeft.
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BerichtGeplaatst: Za Aug 04, 2018 10:22    Onderwerp: Re: Axio/Qin Reageer met quote

1st: Reiner Knizia is my favorite designer, I got 22 games made of him at home, and plan to get 4-5 more. I don't really enjoy commenting negative about one of his games, but I wanted to have a discussion about Qin here... Smile

2nd: To Dinad, regarding Ingenious I misread the rules of Ingenious and wrote something wrong on the forum. When I saw my error I deleted the content of my post. In this post I write it again that I misread the rules for Ingenious and you keep going on this. You can read??

3rd: Dinad, I got Qin in real life too, and you know how many games I played?? In truth I only played 4-5 games of Qin, and this amount of games are too few (I agree on that) to find out the balance of the game. However I have some opinions and I express them here, and we have a discussion. I am very happy that some of you are capable of commenting my suggestions.

4th: Would be nice to see the total stats (win/loss for white and black) on all the three sites. It would also be nice to see the % of games white win when black has only 1 pagoda left. I believe this is far less than 20%, but maybe I am wrong? If it's 6% then white maybe win 47%, draw 6% and black wins 47%, yes? If this was the facts, would it not be better than today stats?? My point is that it seems the 1st player has a too big advantage...

5th: Possible option: If it ends in draw, the winner could be the one that used less "one colored" tiles and/or that take the score to -1 like you said.

6th: In Reiner Knizia's game "Samurai", each player got his own set of tiles. So the designer uses this in other games. The argument that you can take notes during the game is not a very good argument since I address the balance of the game itself, as a board game, not a jijbent game. With my suggestion, you don't know 100% what tiles the other person got on his hand. But you could know that he was out of single colored yellow tiles and similar. You only know his exact hand when he has only three tiles left. Memory, mixed with strategy and logic is used in many games. To me it enhances a game. I am happy that BeAge agrees that splitting the tiles into two would reduce the random of the game = the best player will win more. And this is good! The draw of the tiles will still be present, so you don't remove all the random.
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BerichtGeplaatst: Za Aug 04, 2018 11:40    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

Okay, you have made your point.
Bram is on a well deserved holiday and cannot respond, therefore I will close this topic for now.
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